Q&A with Students United for Palestinian Rights at Michigan State University.

Brandon Chew with Jaime Davidson, Emerson Wigand, Hannine and Andrew Bracken.

“The term ‘apartheid’ was coined when the National Party, after it came to power in 1948, presented its policies in the from of a comprehensive doctrine. However the continuities linking that period with the past and with the present, had led to the term being used to refer to the system of racial segregation and domination throughout its history.”

“A basic aspect of apartheid is the exclusion of the majority from participation in central government on the basis of colour. They are expected instead to meet their aspiration in political structures based on the smaller part of the country to which they are assigned. This consists of scattered, poverty stricken and fragmented areas which are officially called their ‘homelands.’ The regime falsely presents these areas as separate and in some cases independent states.”

• “APARTHEID: THE FACTS,” written by the International Defence & Aid Fund for Southern Africa, June, 1983.

The following is a Q&A style interview with members of the Students United for Palestinian Rights (SUPR) chapter at Michigan State University, discussing various topics that relate to the struggle for Palestinian human rights.

This interview was recorded on May 17, 2021, and has been edited for clarity and brevity. There are links and resources on Palestine-Israel throughout this story.

Brandon Chew

So I guess if we could just sort of start off with a brief introduction to yourselves and your experiences with the group Students United for Palestinian Rights.

Hannine

My name is Hannine. This club is very, very important to me. Before I joined the club, I was very naive of what was happening in Palestine. I'm Palestinian, by the way.

I grew up in a mostly white high school and the city I was from was predominantly white. So I kind of suppressed that side of me. And it wasn't until I met Jaime, who's the president of SUPR, that I started becoming more active and more aware of what was happening.

Jaime Davidson

My name is Jaime. I'm the president of SUPR and I joined when I was a freshman. So I've seen the club evolve a lot through my years at MSU. I’m also an Ashkenazi Jew

Andrew Bracken

My name is Andrew. I have been involved with SUPR since my freshman year. I am a Junior now and I am Ashkenazi Jewish and Métis.

Emerson Wigand

My name is Emerson and I got involved with SUPR -- it's been a little over a year now of being on the board, in large part thanks to Jaime.

I didn't really know much about Palestine at all before coming to MSU. But I started hearing more and more about it in my classes and through people like Jaime.

Brandon Chew

Could someone describe the history of the SUPR chapter at Michigan State?

Jaime Davidson

Yeah, I could touch on that. SUPR was originally called Students for Justice in Palestine and was founded in 2017 by a Palestinian alumni. Our work focuses mostly on uplifting and supporting Palestinian students and their allies through cultural expression, education, political action and of course intersectional activism. We changed our name to Students United for Palestinian Rights in 2018.

Since then our group has gained pretty significant political relevance, particularly among our fellow activists such as the counsel Of Racial and Ethnic Students and the Council of Progressive Students.

So that's kind of where we focus our work now, in ensuring that we have good intersectional relationships with all of the other campus activist organizations.

Brandon Chew

Would apartheid be a reasonable term to use when describing this issue?

Jaime Davidson

Yes. Palestine, prior to the Nakba in 1948, was under the rule of the British Mandate. So it was under colonial occupation prior to Zionist occupation. But one of the founding principles of Zionism is this idea of Terra nullius, which is common across most colonial movements, expressing the idea that the land that Palestine is on was originally uninhabited, which is factually untrue.

As we know from all of the records from the British Mandateand all of the cultural and historical significance of that region before then, there was a vibrant community of Palestinians who were of not only of Muslim background but Christian and Jewish backgrounds as well.

Emerson Wigand

And building off of that it's important to remember the history of people living under occupation because there's this narrative that pops up a lot of 'what do you mean free Palestine? Palestine was never an independent state!' and people using these modern conceptions of nation-states to justify a continuation of colonial oppression.

And if you look at quotes from a lot of early founding Zionists, the people who helped come up with those ideas for modern political Zionism, you see, not only the acknowledgments that there were people on that land, but that their acknowledgement was following these colonial trends of viewing people from non-white, non-Western European backgrounds as non-human.

So, the land wasn't necessarily viewed as empty of inhabitants, but the inhabitants were viewed as non-inhabitants. They were viewed, but just not perceived as human beings.

[Palestine Jewish Colonization Association & Jewish Colonization Association]

[Read The Iron Wall by Ze’ev Jabontinsky]

“You are being invited to help make history. That cannot frighten you, nor will you laugh at it. It is not in your accustomed line; it doesn’t involve Africa, but a piece of Asia Minor, not Englishmen but Jews. But had this been on your path, you would have done it by now.”

“How, then, do I happen to turn to you, since this is an out-of-the-way matter for you? How indeed? Because it is something colonial.”

“What is the plan? To settle Palestine with the homecoming Jewish people.”

• Theodore Herzel, Founder of Rhodesia, in a 1902 letter to Cecil Rhodes.

Brandon Chew

And so that also would ultimately culminate with the mass displacement of Arab Palestinians in 1948. Or I guess could you guys describe that better than I could?

Emerson Wigand

I think it would be described by a lot of people as ethnic cleansing. Because it was a premeditated and planned process. This plan is called Plan Dalet.

Jaime Davidson

Or you could just use the term Nakba which is the term which Palestinians generally use to describe the violence, which began in 1948 and is ongoing today.

Brandon Chew

How can antisemitism be weaponized to silence people criticizing the actions of the government of Israel?

Hannine

So I can go ahead and talk about some of this. I think Andrew has some stuff to say about this too.

As a Palestinian, I'm constantly worried about being branded as antisemitic. Because of this, I always have to watch what I say and how I present myself. Zionists definitely weaponize antisemitism to silence not only me, but our allies too.

For example, if I'm blacklisted on Canary Mission -- I don't know how much you know about Canary Mission. Do you know anything about that?

Brandon Chew

I'm afraid that I don't.

Hannine

Can anyone else explain it better than I can?

Andrew Bracken

It is a website that lists, particularly students and professors, who it claims are antisemitic.

However, the vast majority of the people that are listed are Palestinian activists talking about Zionism and Palestinian liberation. The majority of people on there haven’t said anything antisemitic. They use things like the criticism of Israel to twist this narrative into something like 'Oh, you hate Jews? You support terrorism?'

It's really just grasping at straws.

Hannine

Yeah, so basically, it's just a website that labels you as a terrorist. They gather information, they'll have screenshots of tweets, or if you take part in any protests or you criticize Israel, they'll put you on that list, and it affects your life.

It affects my life here in America. I'm not on it, but my cousin’s on it.

I'm currently in the process of applying to med schools. So if I get put on this list, it'll affect my medical school admissions. Sometimes medical schools will say 'Oh, you're involved in something that's way too political, we don't want to take part in this.'

For that reason a lot of people my age, who are Palestinian and a lot of our allies choose not to participate and not to use their platforms to amplify Palestinian voices, which is unfortunate.

We saw this in 2018, when I don't know if you know who Marc Lamont Hill is, but he worked at CNN, he was a reporter and he criticized Israel and then got fired because he got called antisemitic, but he was just criticizing the government of Israel.

So being called (antisemitic) is scary and it will affect my life if I'm put on this blacklist. If I get put on Canary Mission then I won't be able to go into Jerusalem, even if I'm a citizen of Palestine and I'll be treated like a terrorist at any checkpoints at airports.

Every time my cousin goes to an airport, she has a hard time. They treat her so poorly because she's labeled as a terrorist in their eyes. But those are just examples of how they're weaponizing antisemitism. I think that the others can speak on it too.

Emerson Wigand

I also just wanted to add that, on Canary Mission, you can look at the groups that they have listed as terror-adjacent. They're attempting to just paint with broad brushstrokes and it's got the Muslim Students Association and the Jewish Voice for Peace listed on there.

Basically, a lot of just Islamic groups. It (Canary Mission) just ties them in along with groups like David Duke’s website and right wing nationalists that are anti-semetic.

Just trying to lump any potential movement that's allied with Palestinians in with antisemitic (groups) whether it's right-wing nationalists, or other such groups.

Brandon Chew

I mean, I'm looking at the website right now. Thank you Andrew, for putting the link in the group chat.

This is the first time I've heard of it. So you guys are confident in saying that this is a really serious accusation, if you get placed on this website? Has SUPR run into any issues with Canary Mission before?

Emerson Wigand

I know we had an issue with a speaker that we did have a while ago. I don't know if anybody else would want to speak on that?

Jaime Davidson

I could provide a little bit of background. It was for a collaborative event with the Black Student Alliance. It was this past semester, in late February.

Our speaker was Kristian Bailey, who is the founder of Black for Palestine. Which is an organization which works to draw the connections between the Black Power movements in the United States and Palestinian sovereignty movements in Palestine and across the diaspora.

He is on Canary mission, and in fact, has suffered, like literally being incarcerated in Palestine, for being on that list. Which just shows the kind of combination of racism and anti-indigenous sentiment that this list really exemplifies.

Kristian Bailey was put on the list for explaining Hamas' role as a kind of government in the Gaza Strip. And Canary Mission was saying that he was supporting Hamas, supporting terrorist organizations.

And that exact wording was used in attempts to shut down the event with Black Student Alliance. Thankfully, I spoke directly with the people who were spreading these myths and explained why they were anti-black and untrue.

The reality is that people use the information off of this website without actually understanding what it means, where it comes from and it's generally used to shut down events and dialogues that need to be happening on campus.

Brandon Chew

And I guess I'll circle back to questions related to Canary emission in a second here, but I guess, before we continue, I'm just sort of curious if we could also speak about how when we're criticizing the state of Israel -- I guess if there are any possible examples of antisemitic criticsisms of the state of Israel that you guys have come across and how you guys have responded in shutting down antisemetic rhetoric?

Jaime Davidson

Criticisms of the state of Israel can of course become antisemitic, in the situations when people equate Jews and Zionists. But that claim is dangerous.

Claiming that all Jews are Zionists plays into the stereotype that Jews control a secret world order that can influence international aid investments, media coverage, elections, etc.

But when you really begin to understand what Zionism is, you realize that it has literally nothing to do with Judaism and everything to do with Western colonialism.

Most Zionists in the world are actually evangelical Christians.

All of the instances of anti-semitism relating to discussions of the occupation of Palestine have come from that place, in my experience. Claiming that Jews are the state of Israel, or that the actions of the State of Israel have some relationship with the Jewish people as a whole.

I don't know if you wanted to add on to that Andrew?

Andrew Bracken

Yeah, for sure. I think personally, coming from my identity as a Jewish person, questions like 'how can we make sure criticisms of Israel aren't antisemitic?' tend to bother me. I don't see antisemitism as a thin line to cross.

It's not something that someone can be like ‘oh, whoops, that was antisemitic!’ you know, what I mean? I don't see it as something that someone just dips their toes in.

When people use antisemitism as a way to stop conversations about Palestinian Liberation, it feels like they're weaponizing antisemitism and the real violence and discrimination Jewish people face.

If people are only bringing up antisemitism to stop conversations about other communities getting justice, what does that do? That doesn't protect us.

I feel like the occupation of Palestine has multiple colonial powers involved, that don't have the interest of Jewish safety involved. Countries like England and the United States, who care more about their relationships in the Middle East, than Jews.

There's a clip of Joe Biden in, I think 1986, saying that military aid to Israel is the best $3 billion investment we make, were there not an Israel, the United States of America would have to invent an Israel to protect U.S. interests in the region.

I mean, he kind of said it himself. It's not about Jews, it's not about Jewish safety, it's about advancing other people's relationships.

Jaime Davidson

I think that whole statement that Andrew just said so eloquently can be exemplified by the discussion that happened on campus this past semester with the attempt to pass the IHRA or International Holocaust Remembrance Association's definition of antisemitism.

Which is a definition of antisemitism that is very contentious because of the way in which it has been used to silence activism for Palestine. There is a lot of information on social media about the whole process, which we went through.

But the IHRA definition is one which includes criticism of Israel and doesn’t include any mention of white supremacy. The suppression of Palestinian people is more important to Zionist political actors than the protection of Jewish people.

Brandon Chew

And I mean, at the same time that antisemitism is in some respects, being weaponized to silence advocates for Palestinian Liberation. I mean, it seems as though anybody who tries to advocate for Palestine can be labeled as a terrorist and put on the Canary Mission’s list.

I guess if you guys could just sort of speak to the difficulties in trying to talk to people about the distinction between Zionism and Judaism and how difficult it is to relay those differences to people.

Jaime Davidson

I mean, as a Jew myself, I spent a lot of time thinking about this. Generally, when approaching this question, I tried to start from a place of understanding settler colonialism in general.

Because when people have a basic understanding of how settler colonialism occurs historically, it's pretty easy to identify Zionism as a settler colonial mindset. When you're thinking about Zionism, as a political ideology, it's very easy to differentiate it between Judaism as a religion.

In addition, if people are still confused, I generally tried to explain the diverse range of opinions of Jewish people on Zionism.

So that's a place to start. Does anyone want to add something?

Hannine

I can add. I think that it's becoming a lot easier for people to distinguish between antisemitism and Zionism because of social media. It's helping to educate people about the differences between the two and how antisemitism is used as a tactic to suppress Palestinian voices.

The videos from Palestine and what's happening is revealing to Muslims that it's not just a Palestinian issue.

When they're throwing gas into the third holiest site in Islam, it's more than just a Palestinian issue. It's a Muslim issue, it's a feminist issue, it's an issue that everyone should care about.

But that's all I had to add.

Brandon Chew

What are some of the difficulties in trying to advocate for Palestinian rights? And trying to relay a message that doesn't get misconstrued?

Andrew Bracken

All of us have our own things we've encountered. Like weird people on social media that have compared, particularly the Jewish people in SUPR, to the Jewish people in the Holocaust that were forced to be involved with the genocide of their own people. (Kapos)

I mean, there's also stuff from our own community, people saying that we don't belong, we don’t have a place in these conversations. It sucks now but in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter because us getting flack from our own community is nothing in comparison. But that's just how I'm feeling.

Anybody else want to add to this?

Hannine

I can talk about my experience. It's definitely hard to advocate for Palestine. Especially because of my career choice.

I'm pretty active on Instagram. I mainly post about Palestine and I inform people of my experiences and my stories in Palestine that I've seen. And I will get random Israeli accounts messaging me, harassing me. Or just watching my Instagram stories.

I know that I'm being watched and monitored, and what I'm saying and posting is being watched. And that's terrifying. That sometimes prevents me from posting things that I shouldn't be afraid of posting and that affects how active I am.

Brandon Chew

I guess. Is there anything that I've left out in speaking about the Palestinian struggle for human rights that we should go over?

Hannine

I don't know if you wanted to talk more about how we define Israel as an apartheid state? Do you want us to go further into that? Because I can give you a couple of examples.

Brandon Chew

Please feel free to do so.

Hannine

So, speaking from experience, my mom's entire side of her family is still in Palestine. So we visit Palestine every couple of years. And things are very segregated in Palestine.

For example, there's two different license plates. There's the Israeli license plate and then an Palestinian license plate which dictates where a Palestinian can and cannot go.

If you're on a road you're not supposed to be on, you can die, go to jail, etc. Also, there's the Hawiya, which is a Palestinian ID. Which every Palestinian must have on them.

It has their picture, their identification number, basically it's a number system. But yeah, I have one. Everyone who's a citizen over the age of 16, has to have one. If you don't have it on you, there are some consequences, but I'm not very sure on what they are.

That's all I have to say on that. Does anyone else want to add anything?

Jaime Davidson

I mean, when you look at the comparison between the South African apartheid and the apartheid system in Israel, the defining features of segregation and oppression are evident.

Segregated transportation systems, work opportunities, police brutality, incarceration, et cetera, et cetera.

There's a lot of information out there that relates the two. When we are actually advocating for Palestine, we generally use the model of South African apartheid and the resistances that took place as basically blueprints for our own work.

Brandon Chew

And, are there any other aspects that we should focus on that we haven’t mentioned?

Emerson Wigand

I would say just the complicity of the media in the U.S. when it comes to how they talk about these issues and the type of tenses people use to describe the struggles faced by Palestinians versus by Israelis.

In coverage on this a lot of the phrasing when Palestinians are killed by the Israeli military is simply said that they died and the actor is just removed.

But whenever it's discussion about an IDF soldier or settlers, it's always just that they were killed by militants or killed in armed clashes in ways that shift how the issue is perceived.

I guess the importance and the responsibility of the media in the US as it relates to coverage of this issue. If that makes sense?

Jaime Davidson

I could add something as well. For us, as activists, it's almost upsetting to hear people treating this as if it’s new. People have been speaking up about this for decades. This has been a 70 year occupation in which these same tactics have been employed and only now is the international community treating this like it's something that matters.

Andrew Bracken

And what I was going to say is that, regarding apartheid, Nelson Mandela's grandson, was marching for Palestine in Cape Town, recently.

And Nelson Mandela himself talked about the similarities between the situation in South Africa and the situation in Palestine.

Brandon Chew

What are some examples of possible revisionist history as it relates to Palestine?

Emerson Wigand

The amount of effort that has gone into creating this narrative of (Palestinian) land that was just undeveloped, a barren desert and how it's been “made to bloom” by Jewish settlers and the writing over of the history of land.

Jaime Davidson

Yeah. Israel is often lauded as a leading expert on agriculture and irrigation technologies because of the fact that they "made the desert bloom," despite the fact that Palestinians have been farming in the Fertile Crescent for literally thousands of years.

Brandon Chew

I guess we've sort of been talking for an hour now. But I guess I really would like to, again, thank all of you for speaking about this issue.

I guess just lastly, I'd like to allow you guys, if there's anything else you guys would care to speak about by all means, take the floor.

Andrew Bracken

Also, I just put a link in the chat, I think it's a good resource to send to people. It has like a 101 and common myth section of the website.